|
Post by Baloo on Dec 23, 2003 11:09:18 GMT -5
Okay, I read the story and frankly I am getting fed up with a the BS. Who cares!! Don't you think that if they really caught him they would most definately want the credit for catching him? Why can't everyone just leave this alone? It's done, he is no longer "in control"!!! *steps off the soap box now*
|
|
|
Post by Tina on Dec 23, 2003 11:30:19 GMT -5
Thank you, Thank you!!
|
|
|
Post by Jlew on Dec 23, 2003 12:11:45 GMT -5
Okay...I understand your defiance in really not caring who got that bastard, but in all honesty do any of you feel safer now?
|
|
|
Post by Tina on Dec 23, 2003 12:14:52 GMT -5
Defiance?!? That is not it at all, I am just sick and tired of all these articles with some outrageous story of how we didn't capture him and it was all set up? Do I feel safer? I would feel a lot safer once my husband AND father get home from Iraq!!
This was't just about making US feel safer...but I will feel a little safer once Osama is caught as well.
|
|
|
Post by Jlew on Dec 23, 2003 12:19:36 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly Tina! I don't feel much safer.... this only adds to the issues of why we went to war in the first place..... the deal with the story is it was supossed to make people feel better and safer....We caught the TYRANNT!!! We are no longer in danger!! Makes me wanna puke..... I will never feel safe until we nab Osama.
|
|
|
Post by Demi on Dec 29, 2003 14:41:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Sagan on Jan 28, 2004 12:54:57 GMT -5
Ok, this is a LITTLE off the subject, but a little ON too..... First of all, understand... I will admit this to you guys because I love ya and I know that you will not fault me for this, or put me down. I have ALWAYS stayed out of the political arguments that ensue amoung our little community ESPECIALLY when we are on an open forum for mainly one reason.... I dont have a lot of detailed knowledge when it comes to poilitical conflict. I have my opinions, but a lot of times it sounds like I am talking out of my ass since I am not as informed as I could be. Therefore I stay out of it for fear of being called out on something and looking stupid. But, it still doesnt keep me from thinking my thoughts.. the difference now being that I just have to express them. I JUST CANT TAKE IT ANYMORE. Ok here goes.... Why does it seem to a lot of people that this war and the events surrounding it have to be so underhanded and shady? Why does everything have to be a "photo op" or a "consipiracy" or another "Jessica Lynch Fabrication" etc etc.... ? I understand that some of you are not Bush fans. I am not always myself after all is said and done since 9-11. BUT... just because things are not wrapping up as nice and neat as life NEVER IS... why does that make everything so corrupt? I am a fence sitter more or less. I have a lot of liberal beliefs but I have a lot of conservative beliefs also. In my opinion, I honestly don't think that ANYONE should be totally on one side or the other. If that were the case, then why dont we live in some kind of "ideological monopoly"? In the beginning, I believed that this war was and still can be justifiable in order to prevent the situation from getting any worse than it already has. Yes, a major part of the world believes that we are bullies and that we stick our noses where they dont belong. But, if we dont step in when we think we see it necessary, who is going to? Look at WWII. Look at all the events that led up to WWII. What do you think the world, or more importantly... GERMANY would be like in present day if we didnt step in like we did then? How many more deaths or tortures or concentration camps would there have been? I believe that the ends do occasionally justify the means. Average Iraqi's have not learned any other way of rule aside from how they were taught. They dont know anything else. It SUCKS that soldiers have died day in and day out in Iraq. Especially since the number of casualties have increased more and more each day AFTER the war was "officially over".... but who ever said that this effort was going to be a walk in the park? Iraqi's have been hit with SO many blows. I dont blame them AT ALL for being as volatile as they have been. It has to be scary to have a sadistic madman dictating your every breath one minute and then having to deal with the fact that the same man has been driven into hiding and they are now being forced to trust the one country that they have been coached to hate. Thus causing WAY too many deaths on both sides. Therefore, my thoughts on this war have definitely been tested. I have spent many evenings questoning whether or not this war was going to end up being a complete failure or not. For a while it seemed like we were backing ourselves into such a tight corner, that no matter what our reasons or desired results were (good or bad)... the outcome just wasnt as plausible as we had hoped. Now, dont get me wrong.... I am not so dellusional as to think that everything is all better now. But I do have a renewed hope that we are making headway. Now that I have gone around my elbow to get to my thumb, I will get back to my whole point. If this war raises deep emotional opinions within yourselves... that makes you human. We are all going through that. There is no such thing as a war without bloodshed. I am not pro-war but I do not believe that the world as it is... can continue to exist without taking the necessary steps to change the course of the paths that certain cultures or countries enivitably spiral themselves toward. If you ignore it, it doesnt just go away. So, again.... my point is.... no matter who we are or what kind of power we have in this country, we are all human. No matter what Bush says or doesnt say... acts or reacts... in the end, he is not trying to kill us all. He is not the evil man that Saddam is. Just because he snorted cocaine in his life, or pronounces nuclear... NUCULAR, or rides on his daddy's coat tails, or looks like a chimpazee , or does things to make himself look better for the next election...doesnt mean he isn't doing what he thinks is best when it comes to this war. He is human just like we are. He makes mistakes just like every other human being does. When things happen in the events of this war that are actual results that we are attempting to acheive, why can't it just be viewed as a success and not picked apart or analyzed as a conspiracy theory? If I am wrong then you guys can pick the crow for me to eat and I will eat it... maybe I am too much of an optimist. Maybe not. Who really knows though? My two cents.... I'm not going to go diametrically opposed to you on this one, Wendy. But I would like to point out a few things. For one, we didn't jump in to stop Germany. Germany declared war on US after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. Many Americans were happy to let the British and Soviets get slaughtered trying to stop the Nazis while we sat here in the states arguing over beers about whose war it was. The whole meme about America "jumping" into WWII to save the world is revisionist history. It just didn't happen that way. The French, on the other hand, jumped in at the beginning for what they thought was right and got plowed for their trouble. Now we call them "surrender monkeys". That's so nice, isn't it? I'm an interventionist by nature. I believed in the Somalia mission and the Kosovo mission because I thought there were realistic chances of success for those endeavours. I NEVER thought there was realistic chance of success for our invasion of Iraq. The Bush Administration did not predicate its unilateral attack on freeing Iraqis, but on the immediate threat that Iraq was to the U.S. This has turned out to be a lie. And, I must dispute that "no-one thought it would be easy". A LOT of people did. Including Cheney and Rumsfeld who said publicly that American troops would be greeted as liberators with, and I quote "roses and kisses". To regress a little bit, the tyranny of Hussein notwithstanding, conservative estimates put Iraqi civilian casualties from American bombings during the war at about 8000. Not even taking into account the relative sizes of U.S. and Iraqi populations, that is more than 2 and a half 9/11 attacks we perpetrated on Iraq. And we wonder why they're mad at us? How did WE feel when about 3000 Americans were killed? Now we killed 8000 Iraqis. Iraqis who, as Bush has admitted, had NOTHING to do with 9/11. No ties, no influence, no nada. Of course, Bush took every opportunity to say 9/11 and Iraq in the same sentence in his leadup to war. Another case of deception. The problem with the "we liberated them from tyranny" line is that it's too simplistic. Yes, we got rid of Saddam. What is coming next? All Iraqis are not the same. You've got the Kurds and the Sunnis and the Shiites all together there. And the Shiites are the vast majority. So do we have elections? Do you know why the Administration is stonewalling elections? Because the day after Iraqi elections, Iraq will be a fundamentalist Islamic state. Does that make the US safer or the Iraqis free? Hussein was a bad man. Josip Broz Tito, the dictator of Yugoslavia for decades, was a bad man. But Tito was the ONLY man preventing Yugoslavia from descending in genocidal civil war. When he died, that's exactly what happened. Saddam played the same role, and events are playing out exactly the same. So, given that Iraq was NOT a threat to the US. Given that US occupation of Iraq has not necessarily given the Iraqi people freedom or even safety, why was the war fought? Well, I know that Halliburton has made a lot of money. I know that defense contractors are making a killing, no pun intended. I know that US oil companies were poised to move in on the now-disbanded Iraqi state-owned oil company. I also know that 515+ American service men and women are dead. And that almost 10,000 have been wounded. I know that President Bush has not been to a single funeral for those 515 dead, or visited a single one of those shattered families. I know that the Administration has decreed that dead servicepeople's coffins be brought into Dover AFB in the dark of night, so no pictures of flag-draped coffins make the nightly news. I know that our Armed Forces, especially the Army, are being strained to the breaking point. I know that despite all the rhetoric, the Administration wants to get out of Iraq in a hurry, basing policy on election-year politics, regardless of the cost to the Iraqi people. I know that nothing about this war feels right, looks right or smells right. I know that we were lied to about the need to go to war. When is enough? How many Americans need to die and be sneaked back into the US to be buried before it's too much? How far does Iraq have to descend into chaos before the Administration is wrong? How many of Bush's rosy projections need to be shattered before he is held responsible for his actions? For me, that point was reached long ago.
|
|
|
Post by ladynred on Jan 28, 2004 22:16:40 GMT -5
Ok Sagan, I hear you. Now you know why I really wanted you to see this thread and my post. You tend to make me see things in a different way a lot.
I hear a lot of what you are saying and it makes it more clear to me..... the negative aspects of this war....
Keep in mind, I am not necessarily a supporter of this or any war. I am simply debating the more individual aspects OF the war.... playing devil's advocate if you will.
So here is my ideas back....
I have a little problem with your facts on Germany. Maybe I was too vague. What I should have wrote was that when it comes to the reasons for war there is no crystal ball for the future and hindsight is 20/20. Knowing that, the fact remains that if someone had "taken out" Hitler before invading Poland, millions of lives would have been saved. Jews, Germans, Allied Soldiers, Russians...etc. We might not have jumped in on the war straight from the beginning, but after Pearl Harbor it did become personal to us as well. At which point, things started turning around in that war, with the factual end result that took place.
I am not trying to directly compare the incidents of WWII to the war in Iraq, my point was ... what if someone had done something about the horrible despot Hitler, before WWII was necessary? Many lives were lost during that time, but in the end a horrible man was stopped.
"Hussein was a bad man. Josip Broz Tito, the dictator of Yugoslavia for decades, was a bad man. But Tito was the ONLY man preventing Yugoslavia from descending in genocidal civil war. When he died, that's exactly what happened. Saddam played the same role, and events are playing out exactly the same."
I am not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that Saddam prevented Iraq from descending in genocidal civil war? The only reason that people followed him was out of pure fear of their lives. Hell, they were afraid to refuse to watch his speeches on TV for fear of being killed by his men for treason. I believe that to be the ONLY reason there was never any animosity amoung the Iraqis. Other side of the coin.... a civil war happening NOW is definitely possible with all the confusion and friction. Is that what you were trying to say? Sad thought, that a dangerous, evil man... with no thoughts of murder being wrong who seems to find JOY in forcing his hand.... is the only reason that a country stayed together. (if that was your point)
Bush's insinuations that 9/11 and Iraq were directly related was wrong, I agree. I simply see that as an immature, politically incorrect way of getting us fired up about the upcoming war. That was wrong wrong wrong. I agree with you on that. Bush seems to make wrong decision after wrong decision... it feels like the blind leading the blind after all is said and done. Him through poor judgement on what he does and does not correctly inform America about, and some Americans as innocent believers of what he says. (those that are for this war)
Forgive me, my thoughts are all over the map, but I just thought of something else. We talked last week about the difference between the lives that were lost in 9/11 and the lives lost in any other terrorist act or whatever the case is at the time. I agree and did think about the fact that there were a lot of foreigners that were thinking, "HA! How's it FEEL!" and saw our tragedy as minimal compared to other events that have happened in the past to other countries.... but does that make it any less hurtful to us that 9/11 happened? Just because we are fighting back (referring to Afganistan now) why does that make us whiners that can dish but not take. Why is it our fault that they didnt fight back as hard as we are. We take pride in our country and defend it.... when people fall here, we dont take it...mourn .... and then just move on. We come back swinging. Why does that make us bullies for reacting as we did in the aftermath of 9/11? ANY country that is dealt a blow like 9/11 or any other, big or small.... understandably SHOULD fight back like we are. We just happen to be a country that has the means to do it. Why is that being held against us? I, for one, am exhilarated and proud that we didnt take it lying down.
War scares the FUCKING SHIT out of me. I told you once Sagan, that I was scared that all the fighting and killing and turning against their own that is going on.... is leading inevitably up to WWIII. Call me naive, but it looks way too real to me nowadays. I dont want war, I dont want to die. But as a human, I dont like to sit back and watch innocent, defenseless people endure the imposition that is forced on them that only results in bloodshed anyway. Why not help out whenever we can as long as the intentions are genuine?
Oh, that opened a can o' worms. Are Bush's intentions genuine? That is a whoooole other thread. Do I believe that they way Bush has gone about this whole mess was right? HELL NO! But I will say this, I do believe in my heart that Bush is a good man. He goes about things wrong and questionably.... and should be a bit more up-front and clear about his motives and thoughts... but in the end he is doing what he feels we as a country should do. In my opinion of course.
Oil as the main motive for the war? Yes, I believe that oil was one of the factors involved.... but hey.... a few years down the road, do YOU want to pay 3-5 dollars a gallon for gas? I know I sure as hell don't. With Saddam having control of a large portion or majority of the world's oil reserves.... that would have happened. He is a greedy man and it seems to me that he would have done whatever possible to reign the world in some ways, let alone Iraq. The crystal ball analogy applies here as well though.... of course I am no Nostradamus.... but that is definitely were it seemed it could have gone eventually.
Rumsfeld and Cheney stating that we will be greeted as liberators with roses and kisses.... that is a little melodramatic... but it did happen in some incidences. It was definitley not a blanket reaction, but there were many Iraqis that welcomed us freely. I saw it. Confusion is a strong emotion. I heard reports of those same people that welcomed individual service men, turning around the next day and shooting at them. These are isolated cases but I can understand how confusion definitely can take it's toll on those people, therefore making them question their trust in us. Iraq is going through the exact same thing we are. It is human nature. There are Iraqis that are for this war and Iraqis that strongly oppose it. That is a natural conflict.
All in a nutshell..... anyone that is angered with the not-so-great reception that we are getting over there compared to what we were told the reception would be.... needs to think about the crystal ball analogy as well. Those that told us that we were going to be welcomed through and through might be thinking in long term results. Who knows, 5, 10, 15 years from now..... IF Iraq has become it's own democratic nation with the way of life that Saddam demanded well in the past..... those Iraqis that still HATE us and are killing us with every turn, might thank us then, too. I know that sounds arrogant, I am not saying that we are doing this for the sole purpose of a pat on the back.... but that IS our goal isnt it? To liberate Iraq? Or not.... Hell, BUSH might be looked back upon as a great victor as the one that saved Iraq 5, 10, 15 years from now. Big stretch? Please refer back to my crystal ball analogy once again. We dont know. It could work out that way......
Again, everything I have said might not have come out right, just rambling some thoughts.....
Wooo!! (take a breath Wendy)
|
|
|
Post by Sagan on Jan 28, 2004 23:56:24 GMT -5
Wendy, I see what you're saying. But you seem to proceed from wishful thinking to hopeful possible future conclusion. This is not a basis which I feel is worth the lives of (so far) 519 American servicepeople killed, 8000 Iraqi civilians killed and 10000 Americans wounded. It's just not worth it.
Comparing Hitler to Hussein is a specious argument. Hitler was the leader of arguably the most advanced military and industrial country in the world at the time. Hussein was a tinhorn dictator of a 5th rate power with some oil. And not ALL the oil nor anywhere near it. We got fine, oil-wise, all during the 90's when Iraq's oil production was severely curtailed by sanctions. So really, neither the "gathering threat" nor the "$5 gallon of gas" arguments hold much water.
Let's be absolutely clear. No WMD's mean Hussein was zero threat either to America or his neighbors. To be equally clear, President Bush filled his 2003 State of the Union speech with very, very specific and scary numbers of WMD's that he said Hussein had as a FACT. That, where I come from, is a lie. And it's a lie that so far has shattered 519 American families with deaths and God knows how the families of the maimed and injured are doing, especially considering how the Bush Administration is slashing Veteran Health Care, but I digress.
America has never been a nation that just wanders around the globe attacking countries that might possibly someday conceivably sort of hypothetically could be a threat to us. Not even after Pearl Harbor. This in not a binary equation. It's not "either we kill foreigners or we just wait to be killed!". There are other avenues. Like the "irrelevant" UN that the Administration is currently begging for help, for example.
And yes, Saddam's stranglehold on power did indeed keep Iraq together while other Arab states like Iran and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia have descended dangerously into the grips of Islamic Fundamentalism. I do not condone Saddam's regime. But before we went kicking over anthills over there, we should have thought about the consequences of it. Well, a lot of people did, but the Administration called millions of protestors "focus groups" and ignored us. That's ok. Every dire prediction we made has come true. Being right is some consolation, but I'd rather have our dead countrymen back.
Who knows what will be 15 years from now? But we have to make decisons based on today and the near future. I do know this. In 15 years, thousands of American households will still an have empty seats at the dinner table. There will be children who will wonder what their fathers or mothers would have been like had they lived, instead of dying in a shot down helicopter outside of Baghdad, or had their throats slit in Tikrit or burned to death in a Bradley after a roadside bomb exploded in Fallujah.
When making policies, our leaders owe it to us to think of the human cost. Bush and Cheney just saw dollar signs and American flags waving in Iraq. I do not believe they are good men. I believe they are men born to privilege who believe that power is their right and that this country exists to serve their whims. They saw in 9/11 their chance fo fulfill their dreams of oil conquest in Iraq, which they had planned long before 9/11.
The conquest and occupation of Iraq (let's not mince words, that's what it was and is) was a stupid war. And any optimism regarding the situation there is just a pipedream.
|
|